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Patrice Evra deserves praise not abuse for his role in the fight against racism

Posted on 28 January 2012 | 11:01am

Even those who would never dream of watching a football match – they do exist, these sad souls – must surely be aware that there is added spice to the Manchester United-Liverpool rivalry when they meet today.

The same said football-naysayers must have a vague sense of a row between Manchester United’s Patrice Evra and Liverpool’s Luis Suarez which resulted in the latter getting a hefty ban for racist abuse.

As a result, Evra will have to endure most forms of verbal abuse known to man when he steps out for today’s Cup tie at Anfield. (That’s where Liverpool play, for those who don’t follow football but are still with me).

As he was heading to the team hotel yesterday, possibly musing on the subject of racism, so was I, having been asked to write a foreword to the autobiography of a player called Roger Eli.

Now I know Roger won’t take it amiss if I say even serious football fans may struggle to recall the name. He played mainly in the lower leagues and had a career beset (that’s the word that always goes with injuries in the sports pages) by injuries but who found his best days playing for my beloved (the word always used to describe Burnley when the papers mention my support of them) Burnley.

The reason he is relevant to Evra and Suarez is that part of Roger’s story was the abuse he and other black players had to take as part of the job of being a non-white pro footballer in the late 80s and early 90s.

Changing culture takes time. And it takes activism. And it takes people prepared to put their heads above the parapet and say what is right and what is wrong. There is less racism in football than there used to be. The active campaigns on that front have helped bring that about. There is less racism in society than there used to be. But it still lurks and lingers and the campaign for a truly non racist Britain has not been won. Indeed Doreen Lawrence, mother of murdered teenager Stephen, makes that point in The Guardian today, and questions the current government’s understanding of the issue, and its commitment properly to tackle it.

When Evra hears the insults raining down on his head today, he may or may not be able to block them from his mind. But afterwards, when not just the match but in later years when his career is over, he ought to take pride in having stood up for himself and in so doing stood up for others without a voice or the platform that football gives him. He was under a lot of pressure – not least from the absurd Sepp Blatter, laughably the senior official in the game – to ‘let it go,’ ‘shake on it,’ ‘put it down to the heat of the moment and the passion of the game.’ He didn’t, and even though he ‘won’ his battle, he has paid a price, which is another reason he deserves applause not abuse for what he did.

There must surely be a day when racism is studied in schools for what it says about what we were not what we are. We’re not there yet. But if and when we do get there, Manchester United’s left back will be able to say he played his part in the journey.

I don’t know if Patrice Evra has read, or heard of, Edmund Burke. But in acting as he did, he certainly seemed conscious of one of the greatest political and cultural sayings of all time, Burke’s ‘All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.’

Now if United’s legendarily creative songsmith Pete Boyle could turn that into a chant, I’d be impressed. In the meantime stand by for plenty of ‘you’ll never walk alone,’ and abuse of Evra from the home fans, chants against Suarez from the away fans, but hopefully once the noise is gone, a small step further down the road to a non-racist Britain.

  • Piersz

    Whilst i agree with the sentiment, not sure that Evra’s behaviour, or the FA, or Liverpool’s, has been particularly helpful in helping to develop the race debate.

    The FA had a real opportunity to use this incident as an example of how complex the race debate is. The underlying theme in all of this was Suarez’s British cultural ignorance.

    He openly admitted to use a word that he deemed to be acceptable based on his own cultural understanding. We, in Britain, do not find this word acceptable in any context so, instead of using it as an opportunity to educate him and many others as a result, the FA chose to take the easy option and throw the book at him.

    Whilst there is a minority of rascist idiots in this country, there are far more who are ignorant. It is these people that the FA has failed because of their actions. High profile incidents like this are sad to see, but they should be seen as an opportunity to help move the debate on.

    To say that Suarez had to be punished isn’t in doubt, however, what message should have been associated with this ban has been completely lost.

    • ambrosian

      As I understand it, the FA did a very thorough investigation into this incident which included calling in a language expert who said that the way in which Suarez used the word would not have been acceptable in his own country either. The claim that it was all down to ‘cultural ignorance’ was effectively refuted.

  • Piersz

    As for Evra, he has cried wolf before so some of the accusations he made in the Suarez case, and a number of others before, aren’t a good example of somebody playing his part in changing perceptions.

  • Richard

    If as reported both clubs agree to dispense with the handshake between players, they are admitting they cannot control them. The mindlessness on the terraces may be reduced in the UK but Blatter’s failure to recognise the problem means that in countries like Spain racism in football is rife.
    The lack of discipline on the pitch and hideous attitude towards refs  by players and management incites the crowds further.

  • Olli Issakainen

    “All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
    This applies to the economy as well.
    European states and banks are heading for bankruptcy because of neoliberal policies, yet people are just watching this process from the sidelines.
    I, of course, remember Roger Eli well.

  • Chris lancashire

    Absolutely right Mr Campbell and an excellent result today too. Liverpool 2 Manchester United 1; just in case you hadn’t heard.

  • Anonymous

    It is indeed a fine thing that Evra uses his profile to do this, just as its good that Alastair uses his to fight for depressives.

    I noticed on the telegraph comments a few weeks back, not the guardians, that there really are a lot more racists left in this country than I thought there were. And I was already more pessimistic than most people.

  • Ehtch

    I used to be called Taffy, and when my old school mate that was a “craft technology” teacher, or whatever it is called any day, was called taffy by one of his asian pupils, he said “Why are you calling me a taffy, paki”, and you can guess the rest.

    Us taffies, sorry, welsh, have an A level in racism, and we are not even brown, apart from those silures taffies, swarmy haired something or others, unlike us “proper” blonde celts.

    Compare,
    http://www.austramusic.com/images/photo.jpg
    http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/56/5613/7KPVG00Z/posters/catherine-zeta-jones-the-darling-buds-of-may.jpg

    Ignoring the age difference, Catherine is getting well old now, who would you prefer to shag?

    Males only question, but feel free females if such inclined. Catherine for me, to spread the seed further. what?

  • Ehtch

    Never mind this racist crap, as us taffies have had to suffer it since our saxon and norman friends came visiting us, let’s have some nice super duper brilliant music. Saint Etienne and Tonight, ey?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Mv9z3H8Ow
    well tidy, yes?
    And thanks to my Scarlets for winning their game tonight against London Irish, from Reading(!), Make sense of that if you can, I can’t. Reading? scratch
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16746541.stm

  • Michele

    Aggressive situations at football matches aren’t confined to
    racism, we know there’s horrible viciousness occurring weekly in Scotland
    between clubs regarded as overtly Catholic or Protestant.  These morons need to realise nobody believes
    their pathetic ‘reasons’ for their targets.

    I have intense sympathy for Mrs Lawrence but I wish she
    would learn the same lesson that some already have.  Thou shalt not generalise.  Every time I hear of her talking about THE
    Police it irks that anyone can simply  get away with describing any group as if it’s an
    amorphous blob (while ignoring facts).

    The Police did not ‘not do their job properly’ as she has
    said so often. 

    The killers have been convicted at last because of new
    science; until fairly recently it needed a volume of DNA material to find a
    match, it can now be done with a microscopic speck and THAT is the difference
    between the evidence available for the first/second trials and that for the third.

    Hence also the second trial of Julie Hogg’s disgusting
    killer

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4406129.stm

    We have known for a decade or more about the undercover
    filming and revolting hatred demonstrated by the gang but even that could not
    be deemed proof of their guilt as they didn’t ever mention Stephen (which I find
    weird now we know what we do).

    We live in a place where belief and suspicion and being ‘convinced’
    about our speculation isn’t enough to incarcerate anyone, being civilised is
    sometimes a right PiB.  I know a young
    man who was about 12 at the time of Stephen’s murder.  When he was about 20 and in his 3rd
    year at art college, training for a career like those of his parents, he read
    an hour by hour account of Stephen’s last day. 
    He chucked in his degree course and joined the Met and has subsequently
    told us about cases where he had to witness people getting off charges because
    of lack of evidence (either at the CPS stage – its members can’t risk too many
    failed prosecutions or at the court stage where a magistrate has,
    properly, decided to err on the side of the accused if the evidence only partly
    convinces).

    The Police (am I generalising?) have been re-investigating
    hundreds of cases and must be excited and inspired by the new science (whereas
    some of them have been demoralised and dispirited over the years by statements
    of the like of ‘THE Police didn’t do their job properly’).

  • Steve Morton

    Racism will never be tackled until we start talking about it in an honest and open way, paying lip service to it is to simply place a sticky plaster over the issue. Alastair I am a huge fan of yours, and an avid reader as well as a fellow sufferer of depression. Loving the new book too. P.s as a scouser I would hope that maybe you can also be similarly outraged at the level of the racial abuse we suffer at the hands of much of the country, abuse that affects someone getting a job because of the accent they have! Colour and sexuality currently hold the starring role, but it’s not the whole story!

  • Gilliebc

    Good post Michele.

    I would just add that all the *legislation in the country/world will never stop racists from being the way they are because they are ignorant bigots who cannot be educated or legislated out of their evil prejudices and beliefs because that’s who and what they are and I suspect they enjoy being that way.

    As a Christian as well as a human being I believe we are all equal, regardless of faith, colour or creed.  Surely that’s just common sense for most people, whether Christian, atheist or agnostic.

    I wrote something similar on another site a while ago and was attacked by a gang of what can only be described as white supremacists. I was standing my ground sort of (lol) when a passing muslim came to my assistance. Bless him.  It’s a funny old world both in reality and on cyber space. 

    *Legislation is good in that these racist bigots can be brought to book.  But it will never change their evil natue.  

  • Anonymous

    Questions for you guys.

    We know racism is wrong. And we are fighting, and hopefully winning the battle against it. I think we have more battles to add to the fight though.

    I was thinking about Frankie Boyle. I used to think he was very funny, but the standup where he does all the jokes about disabled people I find disgusting. Hopefully I won’t get attacked for this but I actually think thats even worse than jokes about race. My justification is that I think if my skin was a different colour I’d be fine with it, would feel no different than I do now in the uk (though perhaps if I got turned away at interviews or got called names by footy fans I might change my mind on that.) But obviously I wouldn’t want to be disabled. And I don’t think disabled people are acceptable targets for jokes.

    Also where do carry this fight to, and where do we stop it. People get bullied at school for being fat, skinny, tall, short, ginger, speccy, and any other physical difference.

    I usually feel like vomiting when I hear of political correctness, yet I would like to live in a place where people don’t get picked on for any of the above. What’s the answer?

  • Ehtch

    Oh arse, “England” have capulated – the bluddy twits,
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/static/cricket/statistics/scorecards/2012/01/86939/html/scorecard.stm

    Boycs giving it as he see’s it, as he fecking should,
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/16779286.stm

  • Libdem

    I think you’ll find that Suarez used the word ‘negro’, not in the English context but in Spanish as Evra had  apparently chosen Spanish to insult him. Subsequently, it appears that Ferguson used the word ‘nigger’ probably due to his lack of Spanish.
    It is evident that ‘negro’ has very different connotations in Spanish and English but the panel has chosen to go with the English interpretation in spite of the 2 players talking to each other in Spanish.The media has been particularly disingenuous in that they have persistently used the word ‘negro’ without explaining that it was Spanish and that it means ‘black’.

  • Jon Lawrence

    It was ridiculous the abuse Evra had to take yesterday, what did he do wrong in all this? Thought he handled the whole situation very well and didnt rise to the abuse being directed at him. Whether it played a part at the end of the game when he was at fault for the goal I’m not sure, but he did well overall

  • Ehtch

    yeh, get rid of rascism out of etc..

    Anyway Alastair, you may have noticed my weakness for motor sports. Well, the Monte Carlo Rally was re-introduced to this years 2012 World Rally Championship (WRC), and good it was. Dani Sordo the spaniard came second in a MINI, tidy show. Clip from it,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFAFLHNTl4I

    Sebastien Loab, the frenchman, won it again – YAWN!

  • ambrosian

    I forgot to say that I enjoyed your interview with Stephen Nolan on Friday night (R5 Live). Fortunately, the radio timer switched it off and I fell asleep before Edwina Currie came on the programme.

    The contrast was made between attitudes to physical illnesses and mental illnesses. But it occurred to me that people are also very accepting (if irritated) by computer failures which are such a feature of contemporary life. The reason my post on 27th appeared twice was because at the first attempt Disqus said there was a ‘system error’.

    The human brain is several trillion times more complex than a computer and often said to be the most complex thing in the known universe. In view of that, it’s probably surprising that it doesn’t suffer more ‘system errors’ than it does. Maybe if people looked at mental illness from that angle there might be less prejudice and stigma.

  • Michele

    Thanks Gbc, dunno what happened to my layout, I’d typed it offline using something like wordwrap.

    The bigots you write about are the very same ‘believers’ in FoS that press hardest on the Report button elsewhere.

  • Piersz

    I’m not sure that is what I understood from all that I have read. If this were to be the case, Suarez’s admission, then defence, wouldn’t have made much sense. Regardless, an opportunity to educate has been lost. Evra’s consistent use of the ‘race card’, Liverpool’s poor reaction (referring to t-shirts), and most significantly, the FA’s awful handling of this, has meant that this issue is likely to come up again and again and we won’t have moved forward at all. This was an opportunity to do that.

    Let’s see what comes out of the forthcoming Terry case.

  • Anonymous

    Hi Gilliebc I agree with your premise, even though I’m an atheist, or an agnostic.

    I would be more optimistic on the racism front. I don’t think we can legislate to stop people having racist thoughts and beliefs. Legislating to stop racism affecting hiring in the workplace is difficult too.

    But I certainly think we can legislate to do a lot more to stop racist attacks, or where we can’t stop them – to damn well punish those who carry them out.

    I also got into rows with plenty of obvious racists on the telegraph site both around the time of the Lawrence retrial, and during the Diane Abbott witchhunt.

  • ambrosian

    But surely bringing someone’s race or colour into the argument is irrelevant and offensive anyway. End of story.

  • Michele

    Frankie Boyle just can’t help himself and will end up losing work.  It’s a shame because he can be very funny but there are some topics that it might be OK to be so stark about in a comedy club but it’s not sensible on TV, especially live.

    Didn’t use to watch Little Britain but I’ve accepted their caricature of the user-invalid, such people do exist.

  • Michele

    But what use of the word ‘black’ would be relevant to whatever the dispute was?  I doubt it was about the sky or their kits.

    Are you white, pink or black and does it matter anyway unless you were one or the other insulting someone just for being different?

  • Michele

    Really interesting idea ambrosian.  There was a radio programme last week suggesting something similar, that humans might benefit from down time in both senses of the word.  Something like a reboot without actually being turned ‘off’.

  • Michele

    I don’t look on their blogs these days, unless linked to something from here.
    There’s no place for double standards and (unless there was one on those irrelevant pages) there was no witch hunt against Diane Abbott. 

    The situation is unbelievable.

  • Michele

    When talking to anyone it’s not usually necessary to describe their colour to them …. surely they know.
    So what motivates someone to do so?  To make it plain they consider the other person too daft to know?  To let slip that even subconsciously there’s a value judgement being made?

    When talking to a third party not present to describe a situation between others it might be necessary to remind them of who owns which name and therefore to describe their looks. 
    In that case colour would not usually be being used pejoratively unless it was an adjective describing someone that’s also horrible.  There’s nothing  inherently ‘offensive’ about being described as pink, pale, yellow, brown, black or just off-colour. 

    Must say I don’t much like the term ‘people of colour’ but it’s better than most, just a little dainty.  I don’t know whether others, presumably deemed colourless, are supposed to use it?

  • Michele

    When talking to anyone it’s not usually necessary to describe their colour to them …. surely they know.
    So what motivates someone to do so?  To make it plain they consider the other person too daft to know?  To let slip that even subconsciously there’s a value judgement being made?

    When talking to a third party not present to describe a situation between others it might be necessary to remind them of who owns which name and therefore to describe their looks. 
    In that case colour would not usually be being used pejoratively unless it was an adjective describing someone that’s also horrible.  There’s nothing  inherently ‘offensive’ about being described as pink, pale, yellow, brown, black or just off-colour. 

    Must say I don’t much like the term ‘people of colour’ but it’s better than most, just a little dainty.  I don’t know whether others, presumably deemed colourless, are supposed to use it?

  • Michele

    When talking to anyone it’s not usually necessary to describe their colour to them …. surely they know.
    So what motivates someone to do so?  To make it plain they consider the other person too daft to know?  To let slip that even subconsciously there’s a value judgement being made?

    When talking to a third party not present to describe a situation between others it might be necessary to remind them of who owns which name and therefore to describe their looks. 
    In that case colour would not usually be being used pejoratively unless it was an adjective describing someone that’s also horrible.  There’s nothing  inherently ‘offensive’ about being described as pink, pale, yellow, brown, black or just off-colour. 

    Must say I don’t much like the term ‘people of colour’ but it’s better than most, just a little dainty.  I don’t know whether others, presumably deemed colourless, are supposed to use it?

  • Michele

    Positive aspects of down time?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00my2sc

  • ronnie

    I don’t think Evra has used the ‘race card’ before – correct me if I’m wrong but make sure you back it up with evidence.
    If you’re referring to the warm-down thing at Chelsea, I think you’ll find it was another member of the MU staff that made the accusation – not Evra. Sure Evra was punished for being involved in the flare-up but it wasn’t him who made the accusation. Check it out.

  • Piersz

    Ambrosian, with respect, you are missing the point. The situation wasn’t so straightforward and this is the very issue that I am referring to. If only we all spent a little less time on trying to punish somebody and spent a little more time and focus on trying to make a genuine difference.

  • ronnie

    Ambrosian is right. These two guys were in each others’ faces, needling each other, insulting each other, kicking each other for the whole match. There is absolutely no possibility that the reference to skin colour could be taken any other way than as an insult in this context. Come on – you don’t really believe he meant it benignly, do you? Own up!

    • Piersz

      To be honest, i think we are losing the thread in this thread, so to speak.

      My issue was mainly on three fronts:

      1) The FA had an opportunity to move the debate on and use this as an opportunity to educate so many people about cultural nuances that sometimes cause offence. Understanding diversity and inclusion isnt about saying ‘we are all the same’ because we are not. The D&I debate should concentrate on explaining how we are all very different but we need to understand each other a little more. The FA has effectively punished him and now washed their hands of the debate. Not good enough for me. I do believe that this mainly because they know what is lurking around the corner with the case of the England captain.

      2) Evra as the leader of some form of cultural revolution (slight exaggeration) doesnt wash with me. When receiving a booking for this incident, this is a guy who is alleged to have approached the referee and said: “You are booking me because I am black”. He is the very example of what sometimes holds us all back in aiding the great progress that has been made with race relations for a number of years. This isn’t ambassadorial behaviour in my eyes, quite the opposite.

      3) Liverpool’s conduct – I can’t help but wonder who was advising the club throughout all of this. There are many confused fans who wont actually know what they are supposed to be defending or how they are supposed to be feeling. Liverpool fans will move into default mode and support their own. Does that mean they are all rascists? I dont think so.

  • Anonymous

    Not sure I follow you Michele?

    I just noticed, from spending time on guardian and telegraph blogs, there were a few incidents such as the Jeremy Clarkson one, the Alan Hansen one, John Terry, Luis Suarez, then Diane’s comments came up and it was almost like christmas came for a lot of people commenting on telegraph articles it was like they wanted to take revenge on Diane for all those other stories.

    As for the columnists themselves, there was point scoring but there were at least a couple who looked at it sensibly.

  • Anonymous

    Never really got into Little Britain myself. I suppose Ricky Gervais in extras went over this topic and I was ok with the way they handled it.

    As for the clubs, I once went on an official works night out to a comedy club, one of my colleagues was in a wheelchair and we were all up the front. 2 of the 4 comedians told loads of jokes about disabled people, 1 in particular was so bad and even though he had a whole front row full of people not laughing, he just kept going with the same line of jokes. I dunno if he didn’t realise, or he just had that material prepared and none other or what. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have laughed at it even if my mate wasn’t there, I didn’t when Frankie Boyle did. Yeah he probably does lose work.

    • Michele

      News today that Frankie Boyle has lost a new series.

      I do feel for him in a way, his smashing up/down against what must be his own sensitivity will be his own handicap.

      It must be hard to know where to draw the line when you feel under pressure of the type he is.

  • Michele

    It’s very straightforward.

    Double standards have been applied; Diane Abbott has been allowed to get away with a generalised slur (not to mention being a coward with the stupid pathetic excuses).

    She should have the guts to own her prejudice.

  • Michele

    2nd try, oh boy will it also appear twice?
    ————————–

    It’s very straightforward.

    Double standards have been applied; Diane Abbott has been allowed to get away with a generalised slur (not to mention being a coward with the stupid pathetic excuses).

    She should have the guts to admit to and own her prejudice.

  • Sorry Mr C I didn’t see challenge till now. Been moping re result since saturday. I shall take up challenge and be in touch soon as I’ve done the ironing, I’m a modern man you know.

  • Sorry Mr C, I’ve only just seen this as I have been moping since saturday re the result. I shall of course take this challenge up now, well after I’ve done the family washing and ironing. I am a modern man as well as songwriter you know.

  • ambrosian

    Absolutely. A 15 minute ‘power nap’ after lunch can work wonders and seems to work a bit like a ‘reboot’. It’s been suggested that employers should allow this in the workplace but I can’t see that happening.

    • Michele

      It happens in Vietnam for those that can turn off like a light (or just enjoy laying on a bench like a log otherwise).

      I think the radio programme was referring more to periods of depression as downtime/re-boot  though.

  • Anonymous

    I thought, for the most part, it was just right wingers jumping all over her with fake outrage for something that was in my opinion no big deal.
    I don’t think Diane is a racist.
    I thought the same thing about Jeremy Clarkson no big deal.

    Some people seem to have jumped on one or other which is what I didn’t like.

    Those who apply the same standards to both have the higher ground I feel, in my case by being “not bovvered” about either, in other’s cases by holding them all to account for saying offensive things.

    • Michele

      Jeremy Clarkson sometimes gets it wrong but sometimes right.  I know it was broadbrush but the TG episode in the southern States did have me in hysterics (my petrolhead child still lived in and controlled the remote).
      JCMkII was misrepresented a few weeks ago and those that jumped on what they hoped would be his dead body looked silly for reacting before they knew the context of his remark.
      Diane Abbott was in no such situation and subject to no such ‘editing’, she made a pathetic excuse and I feel that she meant what she bothered to say (before using up all the available characters).

  • Gilliebc

    Hi reaguns,
    re. Diane Abbott, I don’t like her very much because I consider her to be a gobby political lightweight and a hypocrite.  As I expect you know she sends her children to a private school whilst extolling the benefits of the state education system to her constituents and the rest of us.
    However, I do think she had a point in what she said.  Our country has a terrible history of what she accused white people of doing. But that being said, she should have had the good sense not to mention it, particularly in the way she did.  She is after all supposed to be a politician.  Double standards seem to be her stock in trade though.

  • Libdem

    Spot on Piersz!

  • Anonymous

    Really? Will have to look that up. I’d like to see him on, just wish he would give those jokes a rest.

    Then again maybe I’m a hypocrite because I laugh when he tells jokes about terrorism, and I’m sure plenty feel that is beyond the pale.

    And I laugh at Jimmy Carr.

    Incidentally I’m pleased to hear that 10 o’clock live with Carr, Mitchell, Laverne and Brooker is coming back on soon, even though it drove me mad sometimes.

  • Anonymous

    I see your point, JC is tongue and cheek, whereas Diane meant it.

    I don’t have a problem with her even if she did mean it – maybe white people have played divide and rule I dunno.

  • Anonymous

    Hi Gilliebc, I agree that she is a lightweight, and certainly a hypocrite re private schools, though in a way this made a good point – state schools aren’t good enough.
    And I agree that she may have had a point about white people playing divide and rule in the past.

    But I still think, for the most part, she fights for the left and for the poor and at least has passion – I just wish she would come back on “This week” and face the music! Even though I prefer Alan Johnson!

  • Ehtch

    Some say the silures south Wales welsh are originally derived from Atlanteans from Atlanits, as some say the Basques are too, from way way way way from the distant past. Atlantis these days is conjectured to have been where some sand flats are now on the Atlantic coast of Spain, before the icecaps really melted, rising the sea level and all that, circa 5000BC. I will have to relook in my merlin’s book of wisdom of history if it’s right, and I will keep you informed of any “new” thinkings from such scientists.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42072469/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/lost-city-atlantis-believed-found-spain/

  • ronnie

    When exactly did he ‘cry wolf’ before?

    What ‘number of others before’?

    What better way to ‘change perceptions’ than truthfully (in the considered judgement of the independent panel although for some reason you seem to doubt it) to report abuse when it occurs?